Posts by Van Gogh

55

Al Capone vs. Judge Rutherford

by Farkel in

ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone...for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" - james 2: 24, 26

al capone vs. judge rutherford

al capone gained his power by exploiting the weaknesses of people.. judge rutherford gained his power by exploiting the weaknesses of people.

Van Gogh

Farkel,
So Al Capone was the actual FD&S..?
But seriously now, Al was true to himself. The Judge was twister and liar.
Christ would not have been ashamed to have gone out to dinner with Al back in 1919.
Rutherfraud, however, was clearly not invited.
This list would make a great intro to the book that could potentially be the kiss of death to the claims of the WTS.
So who is going to piece everything together in the explosive book that is going to fully expose the origins of JWism and make CoC look like an apologist's booklet? Maybe we should set up a fund to hire a researcher to do it for us... IMO a great investment opportunity...
Theo

43

You cannot live forever in paradise on earth

by Gopher in

the watchtower society has, for about seven decades, been attracting new volunteer workers for its field ministry with the promise of life forever on a paradise earth.

even the titles of its main study books since 1968 bear the promise: the truth that leads to eternal life, you can live forever in paradise on earth, and knowledge that leads to everlasting life.

how logical is this hope that leads people to entrust the watchtower with their time, energy and worldly possessions?

Van Gogh

We were always made to feel that "common sense" indicated that humans were meant to live on earth. And of course they are right: who wants to die? But common sense also shows that death is innate to nature (as is the killing each other of creatures for food). There is little physical difference between humans and apes.
Speculation as to what "sanctuary" will actually entail seems indeed futile - the org was right there, and they were wise not to speculate too much when it came to this subject, as they must have sensed the inherent weakness of the premise. I have noticed that some exjdub Christians do speculate that somehow there will be a possibility to move freely between heaven and earth.
Could anyone BTW comment on Jesus' use of the term in Luke 23:43: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"?
Theo

10

The 144,000 and what makes them tick.

by Clam in

i havent been to a kh since i was a teenager and was always intrigued by the 144,000 and that some supposedly resided in my congregation.. questions about them were inevitably met with ambiguous answers.

"they just know they are" was a favourite reply when i asked how these "anointed ones" received their calling.

has anyone known any jws who reckon they're in the 144,000 club, and what makes them think they are?.

Van Gogh

"BTW are there any ex JWs on here who thought themeselves at one time to be of the 144,000?"
Clam,
You'd be surprised at the "great multitude" of exjdubs who have had some kind of "anointing experience," CAUSING them to actually LEAVE the org - or had such an experience AFTER leaving.
If you are really interested in this subject, there are one or two threads in the last couple of weeks that deal extensively with this - I gather there have been many more in the past. Check it out.
Theo
(BTW, you were not the only one who was met by a big silence when popping the question. So was I at the time. IMO you can expect a lot more enlightenment in this fascinating phenomenon/subject on JWD.)

14

The bottom line argument a dub must accept to refuse blood

by Check_Your_Premises in

jw
friends

since the entire scriptural, historical, and medical basis for the ban on blood is baseless and incoherent, ultimately it rests on the credibility of the wt as god's organization.. of course we can't rely on that either, because the history of the wt includes a ban on organ transplants and vaccinations.

today they allow those treatments, and therefore by their own admission they incorrectly placed restrictions on them in the past.

unquestionably people died adhering to those restrictions.

Van Gogh

"Has God EVER expected men to obey a human He chose as His special servant even when they acted outside His authority? when they acted in error?"
Ringo5:
"But I'm thinking if there is any kind of example in the Bible that could even come close to suggesting this, it would be have been turned into a Distict Convention theme by now..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C_Y_P, Perhaps you sensed present truth:
At the July/Aug 2005 Dis Con in Utrecht, The Netherlands, the following was stated:
We must obey/follow God’s organization/representatives EVEN IF (we know) they are wrong.
The scriptural basis was given was (don’t pin me down on the exact words used):
King David was apparently disregarding God’s directives stating that the Ark was to be carried by means of the acacia poles. In this particular instance, The Ark was moved instead on a new wagon led by Uzzah (2 Sam 6:3).
According to the speaker, Uzzah should have followed to the full the ad hoc erroneous instructions substituted by King David. By trying to thus take the initiative to independently rectify the consequences of David’s mistake, Uzzah was not showing proper obedience to God’s representative/anointed, despite the fact that this representative was obviously wrong. Uzzah paid the ultimate price for taking this course of action and was consequently immediately killed by God.
BTW, a couple of weeks ago (at the last circuit assembly I ever went to) Br. Gounod, the Dutch Branch Office Overseer made a point of emphasizing that thinking in terms of a distinctive heavenly org as opposed to an earthly one was “of course” superfluous. The org was one and the same, whether located in heaven or on the earth.
Theo

36

Two classes of Christians after all?

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

first, as i am just back online, happy new year to everyone!

totally unrelated to the above (or maybe not), it just occurred to me that the unscriptural wt doctrine of "two classes of christians" might have some faint pars veritatis after all as far as the nt is concerned.. of course it is not about "anointed or not," "two hopes," "heaven vs. earth".. yet several segments of early christianity did seem to allow for a huge difference in levels of requirement, vocation, or fate among believers.

on the one hand, the high and hard way of the apostles, disciples, missionaries, evangelists, martyrs; on the other hand, the minimal requirement of the rest.

Van Gogh

Narkissos, you're right, I did not answer you on the gospel bit.
But as you conceded already, the logical connection in the Synoptic Gospels is far less obvious.

Something always strikes me though: Jesus apparently came all this way from heaven to earth to be present in the flesh in order to get his message across personally, yet the only one he did not meet in person after all this effort runs away with his Christian message as the foremost apostle who consequently starts bragging about his own "vicarious" suffering. Paul uses a lot of words and interpretation in the process. I think it would be possible to read the gospels in way that is not colored by the influence of what Paul wrote. Leave Paul's Gospel "commentaries" out of it and you could IMO read the Gospels for what they are.

Jesus avoided all this verbose and exegesis because he knew his example said it all. It had a magical effect on the "multitude." In the end they would, however, all to some extent be required to forsake everything and follow him. We just don't read about it as much, as Paul is so busy writing about his own project so we don't get any report on any obscured "needy widow" giving her own two cents. Christ probably couldn't ask the multitude to forsake anything because they didn't have much more to forsake.
Mathew 10:37- 40 talks about putting Christ first in loving him. This would be a very relative thing - indeed offering a cup of water would suffice for some, but all of them were still required to take up their cross to some extent. Sounds like vicarious suffering? Same goes for the rich man in Mathew 19/Mark 10/Luke 18. He owned a lot of possessions, so he had a lot to forsake if he wanted to enter the kingdom. Christ knew he put those possessions before loving him so they stood in the way. Vicarious suffering? He would certainly be a lot more like the multitude after donating his possessions to them.

Besides, not everybody could follow Christ and stay with him till his death literally - Christ himself always necessarily avoided the multitudes in the end - nor could they be required to die literally at their respective crosses. Everybody did what he could - Christ wasn't a drill sergeant nor was there any special separate class to work your way into. In fact, you could work your but off in order to work your way up, only to be rejected after all: Mathew 7:21.

As far as Mathew 25 is concerned, I believe it is clearly a parable, perhaps involving two standards. That's all I can say - who knows who the "brothers of Christ" signify? At least we figured it isn't the GB or the FD&S, another elusive "class" concept cooked up from the parable bit in the previous chapter 24.

That's all I can cook up.

Theo

36

Two classes of Christians after all?

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

first, as i am just back online, happy new year to everyone!

totally unrelated to the above (or maybe not), it just occurred to me that the unscriptural wt doctrine of "two classes of christians" might have some faint pars veritatis after all as far as the nt is concerned.. of course it is not about "anointed or not," "two hopes," "heaven vs. earth".. yet several segments of early christianity did seem to allow for a huge difference in levels of requirement, vocation, or fate among believers.

on the one hand, the high and hard way of the apostles, disciples, missionaries, evangelists, martyrs; on the other hand, the minimal requirement of the rest.

Van Gogh

Did it ever occur to you to check out what Jesus himself had to say on the subject?
Considering Paul's background it should not come as a surprise that he'd be the first to volunteer as the first member of this freshly re-invented "priesthood" for Christianity. Or should I say "Christendom" in WTS newspeak? Just look at the way Paul talked about women as opposed to the way Jesus did.
Quite a contradiction isn't it...?

10

Wal Mart -- The High Cost of Low Price (JW similarities)

by Jourles in

i watched this film/semi-biased documentary last night and was very surprised at the many similarities it contained when compared to the jw's.

i don't want to give away what the detailed similarities are - you should just watch it for yourself.

the parts i found eerily comparable were: the union "packages," use of genders in management, lawyers with unlimited money, the treatment of its "associates," the lawsuits brought against it and deceptively lying in court.. i believe i have just found which company the wts tries to mold its business model after --- wal mart.

Van Gogh

The commercial organization Herbalife is listed 4th on Rick Ross’ “Today's top 10 most popular subsections within this database” slightly higher than Jehovah’s Witnesses (nr 8). Rick Ross is a cultbuster. Source: http://www.rickross.com/
According to Wikipedia, this group utilizes a multi-level marketing (MLM) network to sell nutrition and cosmetics products. Attributes similar to those used by cults earned Herbalife reputation of being cult, cleverly disguised as legitimate business. To advance in ranks and increase returns from activity, Herbalife adepts need not only to sell the goods, but to recruit friends and relatives, who in turn will recruit the next distributors, thus building a "distribution network". Internal structure and control of Herbalife that is similar to a paramilitary organization according to its critics. Herbalife, however attributes the negative publicity to increased business competition and its own commercial success.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Herbalife

31

Spokesman-Review article "Cut off by Faith"

by Mr Rocky in

jw
friends

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/story_pf.asp?id=96267.

i posted this yesterday in friends but it never showed up in friends.

without a link it died a very fast death in active topics.

Van Gogh

Concur Gary1914:

"The truth that they alledgedly have should be able to withstand any amount of questioning..............."

IMHO a text-book case of concise, balanced, understated, and factual reporting. Sketching the essence in this seemingly simple way is often harder then it appears to be... traces of emotion and adjective could cloud the message and defeat its purpose.

Let them be condemned by their own words and let their "loving measures" speak for themselves.

Facts could evoke emotion in others, like Nathan confronting King David with his own overzealous judgment and rationalized actions.

Theo

2